Because we're able to ascertain right from wrong.
And this is simply wrong. Negates God entirely.
www.our21.com/UnitedNations/photo-1.htm
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Luck of the Draw |
Thick | ||
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".....what possible claim could we *ever* have to know what is 'necessary' and 'unnecessary'."
Because we're able to ascertain right from wrong. And this is simply wrong. Negates God entirely. www.our21.com/UnitedNations/photo-1.htm |
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palescotsman |
Re: Thick | ||
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Says the rhetorical 2 year old screaming for candy. Assuming an eternal perspective, what are a few years in a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion. That would be akin to opening a huge book to a random page, reading 2 to 4 words, and assuming that you understand the plot, the characters, their motivations, the language, the symbolism, everything of the entire book....and are qualified to critique the book at literature.
Not only understand it all from the 4 words (one of which was 'and', by the way)...but understand it better than the guy that WROTE the book. But you don't know. You don't know the before, the after, you only know the now. And now is but a moment in the infinity of before and after. Given someone with a limited understanding of the now (I don't mean limited in any mean way...only that you are aware of what's around you...so even in the now, you comprehend the barest fraction of what there is to know).....and someone with a full and complete understanding of the the before, now, and after.... ...I'm gonna have to put my money on our hypothetical God for having a better idea of which way is up. |
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Luck of the Draw |
Re: Thick | ||
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So, is your "ghost in the sky" moral or immoral?
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Manruss |
Re: the context of suffering | ||
Quote: I can see the usefulness in creating some suffering. My point is that at some point the amount of suffering becomes superfluous to creating a world with all the positive counterparts of suffering. It's like this: if I get cancer, I can see how the suffering of the cancer might allow me to realize the pettiness of getting upset over little things and better appreciate the important things in life like family, friends and simple pleasures. But in addition to the cancer, did I need my dog to get hit by a car, too? It seems to me that the amount of suffering in the world is utterly incommensurate with the idea of suffering being a tool of an all-caring and omnipotent God. Quote: That's assuming, of course, that there's no suffering in the afterlife. But then, as you say, if suffering is a necessary component to free will, then doesn't that mean that we'll be sentenced to spending eternity without any free will? If it's more important to have free will rather than freedom from suffering, then doesn't that mean that the afterlife would then be worse than life on Earth? Quote: I don't know. Creating life to be painful in order to teach people that life is painful seems like logic oddly akin to hitting someone in the head with a hammer in order to teach them that it hurts to be hit in the head with a hammer. It's a lesson that reflects reality only because you've made it reality. Quote: That may very well be the case, but if these three or four words are all we can see, then unfortunately, that's what we have to build our judgments on. Likewise, if I don't have any evidence or reason to believe that there's something greater going on than what appears to me to be an absurdity, then I think I can be forgiven for concluding that it is an absurdity. |
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Unregistered(d) |
laugh all you want | ||
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"There literally cannot be the experience of joy without the existence somewhere of it's opposite. It cannot happen.
So you are admitting that gOd is not ALL POWERFUL? You are the dense one. The contradiction is as plain as day, and I'm not exactly the first person to point at it and laugh. THINK " _______________________________________ This is beyond your grasp. We have to approach this from our human perspective. Human beings cannot comprehend 'joy' unless it is contrasted with it's opposite. Without something to compare 'happiness' to, the concept is meaningless. One assumes 'God' can overcome these comprehensional limitations, but 'we' cannot. I'm sorry this obvious truth flies over your head, but it is what it is. |
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Unregistered(d) |
No negation here | ||
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As tragic as the picture of the dying child is, in no way does it 'negate' the existence of God. In the first place, the ultimate workings of 'God' are, by definition, beyond human comprehension. Whether the sufferings of this child and all the other people who suffer serve some purpose beyond our ability to understand is simply unknown to us. But more concretely, the existence in which human beings live requires, in order for there to be all the 'good things' of life that we all crave, that there also be the tragedies, sorrows and disappointments of life. According to the way human beings perceive their existence, everyone cannot be happy, safe, and at peace at all times. Were we all, no one would experience it in that way. If somehow everyone on earth were right handed, the term 'left handed' would literally be meaningless. This existence is literally based on understanding contrasts, dualities and relativity. Without these opposites, we could not exist in the form that we do now.
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Luck of the Draw |
negate | ||
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We don't need to know god's mind or scheme of things.
Simply whether god is moral or immoral. A contradiction of that which he bills himself to be. He has the ability to affect pain and suffering as was shown Eden/Genesis. The picture does negate a just, forgiving, merciful, loving god. |
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Manruss |
Re: No negation here | ||
Quote: That's just an appeal to the unknown. One could just as easily say that the workings of exorcisms and divining rods are beyond human comprehension. In fact, this rhetorical excuse can be used to justify just about any absurdity you can imagine as being "beyond human comprehension." Unfortunately, being a human being, human comprehension is exactly what I have to work with. It may be that there is some supernatural creature out there doing things that seem daft or unnecessary or wholly irrational to us but which are actually being done for good reasons. But unless those good reasons can be demonstrated to me, I can't be expected to believe that this is the case. |
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Unregistered(d) |
good reasons | ||
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Manruss -
My point is that the tragedy of a starving child is not dispositive of the existence of God, nor are other forms of suffering. Atheists for some bizzare reason try to claim that if God refuses to make everyone happy every waking minute this is somehow proof that 'He' does not exist. I say , as much as I would prefer to be happy and safe all my waking hours, that is not the nature of earthly life, God or no God. |
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Luck of the Draw |
good reasons... | ||
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EF....no, he doesn't have to make us happy every waking minute of our life.
Simply is he: Moral or immoral? A contradiction of which he bills himself to be? |
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Manruss |
Re: good reasons | ||
Quote: Nothing disproves the existence of God. You can't prove a universal negative. I don't think the problem of the three universals has ever been intended as an argument against God's existence, but rather against certain speculations on God's nature. |
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lostone |
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Why not a powerful, but not very good, even evil, God? The universe we experience does not rule out such a creature, albeit science makes it fairly clear that
such a creature, if it exists, lurks very much in the background. Postulating such a creature certainly makes the problem of the existence of evil / suffering
much more reasonable. Perhaps this creature lacks (or lacked) the power and/or knowledge to create a world where competition and one creature eating another
was not part of life. Maybe this hypothetical creature could even be benevolent and well-intended, but simply be a limited being, just as his creations are
limited.
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