For the record, I believe that you can be a non-Believer and still be moral. Also wasn't Hammurabi, whose likeness can be found in many U.S. gov't. buildings, a non-monotheist?
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ExplodingToad |
Morality |
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I have heard an assertion lately that laws in America stem from the Bible and if you are not a Believer, you have no morals. What say you?
For the record, I believe that you can be a non-Believer and still be moral. Also wasn't Hammurabi, whose likeness can be found in many U.S. gov't. buildings, a non-monotheist? |
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Kalvan |
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Of course you can have morals without being an Xian. The arrogance of that charge is breathtaking. The polytheists of the ancient and modern world, non-theist Buddhists, and atheists all had/have their moral codes. Anyone with empathy for fellow human beings and a bit of enlightened self-interest can qualify.
Hammurabi was a polytheist. |
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Florida Jeff |
Re: Morality | ||
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Kalvan,
Have you studied history of the time enough to pick up the influence of the Persian Hakamanisheeya (sp?) on the Abrahamic Religions vis-a-vis Zoroastrian beliefs? I dug into it at one point when I had a lot of time to do summer reading. That era of history at that location is fascinating, if I recall. I have not had a lot of time in recent decades to read a lot of history. I might have to catch up again after retirement!! You really had me dusting off my memory banks. One summer while I was still in school, I had a so-so job, but I spent most of my evenings reading the history of the ancients. Thanks for the recall! Jeff |
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aspong |
Re: Morality | ||
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Much of modern morality/ethics comes from Christianity, though the links become more tenuous with time. Modern morality also owes much to several other influences. One source people find hard to believe is an influence is the morality which comes from TV.
Much of our morality is an inherited thing. We don't all rewrite morality despite our parents or grandparents. I remember when I was young I disliked much of my father's ways and swore I would never be like him, but as a grown up I recognize both the logic in his behavior and my own unconscious imitations of him. That's the way of many things, personality, morality, etc. We inherit a lot and we make up some of it as our own persons. It matters little what our parents religion was, the morality usually rubs off regardless. As with many things human, inheritances go back a long way until they are finally diluted enough to be amost unrecognizable. This is true of looks, diseases, pathologies, physiology and many things, so why not also morality/ethics? I believe it's a total nature + nurture + environment combination. For the nature side, I know I've always tuned to things which aligns with my own morality as I'm sure other people do also. From observing my own kids, I'm convinced we are born with some of our programming already in place. Nurturing and our enviroment are add-ons. They may be big add-ons, but I believe we start with anything other than a blank slate. And in the first few years, we absorb more than just how to walk and talk. The whole framework of how we live has its foundation in those forgotten years. Yet we think ourselves more intelligent than our initiation into the world. |
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Florida Jeff |
Re: Morality | ||
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Aspong,
Most western morality/ethics is traced to the Tanach, or Hebrew Bible. That preceded Christianity by a few millennia. Jeff |
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Luck of the Draw |
Re: Morality | ||
Quote: Would have to agree and the impression I had received. Quote: Agreement also with the exception...took away how NOT to parent. Quote: Interesting. Have mulled this over myself. Was it basis in catholicism (in graining) where sense of right from wrong comes? Yet, I think I knew/was taught this long before an introduction to religion. Wee ones, have this "intuition" thing goin' on. They may not understand wrong....yet have the ability to "blush" or feel discomfort in certain social situations. The "intutiveness seems to leave with age, or we drill it out of them? By all rights I should've adopt my parents/siblings beliefs/religion/socity's but didn't. Apologies if explaining this poorly......but there is something there already in place....there in the beginning....of who/how we will be? Is conscience already in place or is it taught? LoTD
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying"....Kurt Vonnegut I know a lot of fancy dancers, people who can glide you on a floor, They move so smooth but have no answers......Cat Stevens |
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aspong |
Re: Morality | ||
Quote: That depends on who you read. Christianity changed "the Hebrew Bible" way of doing things in quite significant ways. Though one came from the other, they are very different animals. Western society was built by a dominantly Christian society with Christian values in mind. Times have changed, but such legacies don't disappear overnight, especially when the ethics are compatile with democracy. It's simply a pragmatic exercise in history, but because religion is involved people kneejerk into dissociation. Quote: These are two different issues that shouldn't even be in the same sentence. One is an historical observation, the other is a religious judgement. The former can have some truth without giving a jot of credence to the latter. |
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sear |
Re: Morality | ||
Quote: "Post hoc ergo propter hoc" [after that, therefore because of that] is not only false reasoning, but reasoning known to be false even to the ancients. The Bible was compiled before the U.S. was Founded. The Bible influenced many of the U.S. Founders; even some of those that were not Christians. The Bible addresses morality. The United States wouldn't benefit from being immoral. So it ends up supporting some of the moral positions which the Bible got to first. If the chronology were reversed, would we say the U.S. influenced the Bible? The Bible opposes murder. So does the U.S. I'm not sure that's an adulation to J.C. Quote: At last! I was wondering how much longer I'd have to wait for anyone to mention the Zoroastrians. |
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ExplodingToad |
Re: Morality | ||
Quote: Sear, I call your Zoroastro and up you one Akanaten! |
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The Orange Duke |
Re: Morality | ||
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The real question is, can you be moral and be a monotheist? evidence points to no.
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Strange online admissions: Logically, that would mean that all religion is false - Nimbo What They Are Saying About OD I know that there is some part of you that thinks this is clever banter.... don't feed into that part. mm1956 |
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aspong |
Re: Morality | ||
Quote: TOD, are you saying monotheists are less likely to have morals? What's the evidence for that? |
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aspong |
Re: Morality | ||
Quote: Very good Kimo Sabe. |
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Kalvan |
Re: Morality | ||
Quote: I'm not familiar with that term but I have read some on the influence of Zorastrianism on the Abrahamic religions. It was the first "revealed" religion. The eschatology of Judaism fundamentally changed post-Exile thanks to the influence of the Persians. It appears they contributed things like the dualism of good vs evil; angels and demons; post mortem judgement and subsequent heavenly reward or hellish punishment; individual and group resurrection; a future savior. I think Christianity got a double whammy, because it absorbed elements of Mithraism, one of its primary competitors popular in the Roman legions at the time, and Mithras was one of the angels in the Zoroastrian pantheon. |
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aspong |
Re: Morality | ||
Quote: Are you talking about the oriental Kabala, where a deity is sometimes described as Hakama, supremely wise beyond our comprehension? |
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Florida Jeff |
Re: Morality | ||
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Aspong,
No. That is the Persian name of the dynasty under which Zoroastrianism flourished the most, if I recall. I don t remember how it is usually transliterated, but it is (as you obviously know) a fascinating study. I think that Zoroastrianism (and I am sure that Judaism) dates earlier than this dynasty, but the dates fail me so many years after I studied this area. I do recall that it is the Persian dynasty that was the largest geographically, and that it preceded Christianity and Islam by a few centuries. Jeff |
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aspong |
Re: Morality | ||
Quote:It certainly is Ollie. Of all the periods in history, this is one of the ones I would love to visit. |
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Florida Jeff |
Re: Morality | ||
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I think the period holds a lot of clues to who many of us are today.
It provides, as the professional historians call them, a lot of connections. Jeff |
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Kalvan |
Re: Morality | ||
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Are you referring to the Achaemenids?
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vdiamond |
Re: Morality | ||
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