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 vinny the hack |
Re: Re: Capitalism or Anarchy | ||
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Posts: 284 (11/15/06 23:59:43) Hardcase |
Quote:You're just living in the wrong country. Up here in the frozen tundra, pot is in the final vestiges of being legal, same-sex marriages are all the rage and we have I.U.D. (Inter Universe Delivery) crafts. Ca-nuh-duh! Ca-nuh-duh! Ca-nuh-duh! |
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LanceRunolfsson |
Re: Re: Capitalism or Anarchy | ||
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Posts: 1582 (11/16/06 00:09:29) Moderately ironic |
Quote: Imagine a country that actually invites folks to imigrate from south of the border:^) Being from southern California, Southern Oregon is about as harsh weather as I can cope with. Regime Change It Starts At Home.  |
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vinny the hack |
Re: Re: Capitalism or Anarchy | ||
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Posts: 284 (11/16/06 13:42:47) Hardcase |
Not even for legal pot?
 I love heat more than anyone I know. I have never complained about it being too hot, even approaching 100 F. Before my ex- took all my money, I used to pay big bucks for southern clime vacations once or twice a year. Except for a couple of months where it can get pretty brutal (or not), it's not that bad up here, at least where I am (and a few other places I know of in Canada). The only other problem with the climate is that the hot weather doesn't last so long, but some (silly) people prefer spring and autumn, anyway. Not last summer, but the summer before, we had something like 35 days in a row where the daily high was above 30 C. (about 85-86 F). Would you be surprised if I told you that Ontario's lowest latitude is about the same as Northern California? Would you believe that in the dead of winter Vancouver's daily high is 41 F? Would you believe that bears around Toronto are not white?
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sanarchus |
Re: Re: Capitalism or Anarchy | ||
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Posts: 55 (12/10/06 10:37:22) Proto-imperialist |
May the year 2007 be the beginning of the end of capitalism?
Another year of capitalism is coming to an end, one more year has passed full of wars, serious poverty, low paid work and addictive boredom. But at the same time, the count down has begun for the final chapter in the existence of capitalism. It is a system that brings out the worst traits in human character, it deforms mentally and physically the people and turns their leaders into tyrants representing the rich who have put them there to rule in their name. Capitalism is a private system for the circulation of capital that is based on inheritance of the social means of production. The only rule of capitalism is the allowing of one person to exploit as many others as he/she can (size of capital), all human struggles today are the direct result of the capitalist system which must go. National struggle is a capitalist struggle, class struggle is a capitalist struggle, and environmental struggle is capitalist too. Capitalism will be stopped, and the question is not how but when? All technology, machinery, land, natural resources, etc, is going to be owned by no one but it will function for the benefit of all. There goes inheritance and leadership. Local people through a synchronized-coordination will operate for the benefit of the whole humanity whilst the whole of humanity will operate, if needed, for the benefit of the locality. The internet is also just another capitalist mass manipulation, just as the cellular mobile that could and should be subverted and used like everything else for the transformation of capitalism to a revolutionary anarchism. Most people on earth dont even have electricity yet; most people on earth still live on less than three dollars a day. The revolution will be carried out by the oppressed and poor of the world that makes the total majority of humanity on the planet. The state and the capitalist systems will collapse simultaneously as the anarchic revolution spreads to all regions of the world. Hierarchy and authority will disappear as the revolutionary consciousness of the people will advance to a new historico-evolutionary stage. The money system is the name for modern slavery; it invades your inner being and deforms it, turning you into a desperate, egotistical and greedy person. Religion, philosophy, law and science are all an ideology of money to be used by the richest few against all of humanity. The capitalist system uses everything and every idea for the elongation of it supremacy. I know that capitalism is not going to last for long, it has reached its limit, beyond that anarchy is waiting. We have the means and the will for the first time in human history to transform this brutal capitalism into a healthy and creative environment, so life could be free and happy. The future is anarchic whilst the present unfortunately is still capitalist, but as I said, not for long. Our existence in the future will be without money or labor, without states and classes, without politicians and governments, just anarchy in equality. |
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 Luck of the Draw |
Capitalism/Anarchy | ||
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Posts: 2213 (12/10/06 11:37:40) Proto-imperialist |
Call me synical but would have to agree.
Jobs/unemployment/economy aren't a rosey as the government/Bush would lead us to believe. People aren't or are having to deal with paying greater portions for medical insurance. Some simply no longer having it offered. I think there is a serious threat as to the "middle class" shrinking. Worry that we will become a nation of the "haves vs have nots" The debt load young people are carrying....be it paying back student loans or tied up into some fancy home, of concern also. Then there are those (Iraq) that see or view our way of life, it being so superficial, as the root cause of that which is wrong. Something has to give/change......no? What did "let them eat cake" get Marie Antoinette? Interesting insights also.....thanx for sharing. |
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sear |
Re: Capitalism/Anarchy | ||
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Posts: 568 (12/10/06 14:17:03) libertarian |
Quote: But pale, "if you're sitting on millions of dollars of property, you could" easily have a 'middle class' lifestyle, or below. Family farms are an obvious example. Farmers are obliged by circumstance to take high risk gambles. Should they leave a field fallow, planted with nitrogen fixers to replenish the soil? Or should they invest the $37.oo per acre to chemically suppliment that field? Should they plant corn? Or will the price of soy beans at harvest time make that a better cash crop? What about floods? What about drought? What about plagues, or other infestations? One or two bad seasons, and a profitable farm can be spiraled into unrecoverable debt. Net worth is a legitimate gauge of what is middle class or not. But so is lifestyle. And a man that works 70 hour weeks for years on end because he can't leave his dairy herd is not likely to lead what we commonly think of as a middle class lifestyle; even if he's a multi-millionaire on paper. Hello sanarchus. Welcome to Politicians & Philosophers. Quote: You make an important point here sanarchus. Pure laissez-faire capitalism is limited by laws of outright theft & fraud, and perhaps little else. But capitalism U.S. style, with anti-trust statutes, insider-trading restrictions, etc. is much safer for casual investors. Quote: I'm not sure whether you view this optimistically, or pessimistically. But thanks for posting it sanarchus. Visit often. Post a lot. Quote: True. It depends upon the criterion of evaluation. By some standards it's not so bad. But in light of the underlying deficits, the War economy, and so on, I think it's not as solid as the Bushies want us to think. |
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sanarchus |
Re: Capitalism/Anarchy | ||
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Posts: 55 (12/11/06 05:39:04) Proto-imperialist |
I wish to thank you both for your warm greetings and welcoming invitation, in most forums I receive hostility and in some I am banned altogether. I am glad that there are still good intelligent people left in the world, the sad thing is that they are only few and far between.
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sear |
Re: Capitalism/Anarchy | ||
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Posts: 568 (12/11/06 10:41:58) libertarian |
It's something new.
We're tentatively calling it "substance". We're glad you're willing to give it a try. You've obviously come to the right place. Visit often. Post a lot. |
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sanarchus |
Re: Capitalism/Anarchy | ||
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Posts: 55 (12/12/06 07:08:17) Proto-imperialist |
Sear, ok @Heavy forum you have, but how would you describe your contribution to fasten the process of revolutionary change, toleration is an accomplice to the crime called capitalism. In other words: the idea or the meta-plan is to start the anarchic revolution at the end of this decade some time. I want to liberate my self from capitalism but I cannot do it alone, I need the majority of the oppressed and the exploited masses. This will be achieved soon, the people are getting fed up with this misery, and they deserve something better than employment or unemployment. We want the revolution to happen in our life time and the sooner is the better for all. |
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Luck of the Draw |
Captialism/Anarchy..... | ||
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Posts: 2213 (12/12/06 08:51:20) Proto-imperialist |
Sanarchus.....don't mean to burst your bubble but.....
It just isn't going to happen. You should've noticed or seen this with this administration alone. The display of apathy. Either folk AREN't hurtin' enuff or they simply don't give a @#%$ anymore. Odd the things folk forfeit for false security, ey? |
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sanarchus |
Re: Captialism/Anarchy..... | ||
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Posts: 55 (12/12/06 09:02:40) Proto-imperialist |
I will clarify my position: in capitalism like today and as your question poses is that technology{computers} are used for the benefit of their owners, the capitalist class, but once this is finished, technology will be owned by no one but all, operated for the individual and for society as a whole. That will be the end to private ownership of the means of social production, i.e., the people ownership of the computer.
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sear |
Re: Captialism/Anarchy..... | ||
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Posts: 568 (12/12/06 10:54:56) libertarian |
Quote: I'm not sure I understand the question. I spent a few decades in the employment of a Fortune 500 computer company. I started there as a quality control inspector, and eventually worked my way into semiconductor development. During that time span, I witnessed (at microscopic level) computer chips migrate (evolve) from the sub-circuit level (those primitive 3 legged cans visible on the circuit boards of pocket transistor radios), to gigabit chips. Quote: sear previously posted elsewhere: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: It's an enchanting notion sanarchus. Don't hold your breath. First of all "computers" are a fast evolving amalgam of hardware and software. Moore's Law indicates the spectacular rate of technological evolution currently manifest in the computer industry. The revolution you propose would most likely put an end to that. In addition, at the time I left the industry (Dec. 31, 1997) the turn-around time on semiconductor chip production was ~4 months. Producing them requires many complex, extremely expensive dedicated production sectors (hundreds of gates), with lots of extremely expensive, delicate, finicky production equipment. Without the industrial titans to finance the huge production plant costs, the precision production work which turns sand into thinking machines probably wouldn't happen. Further, you're tilting at the wrong windmill here sanarchus. Due to the economic miracle of mass production and economy of scale, the cost per byte of computing has been plummeting ever since the phrase "computer bug" was coined (the contraption was so gross, an insect crawled into it, and caused it to malfunction). I admire the independence of your spirit sanarchus. But your intention as you describe it here is totally unworkable. It's a delusion. Were it ever to happen, it would set society back many decades, and anchor it there. |
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palescotsman |
Re: Capitalism/Anarchy | ||
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Posts: 833 (12/12/06 22:42:12) Beam me up, Scottie! |
Quote: Here's the fundemental and insurmountable weakness in your entire proposal. You need the masses, but you don't change a person's mind with the arguments you're using. You lack the willingness or capacity to describe HOW your system will deal with the real world issues that give every other system such difficulties. You claim 'capitalism sucks'. Yeah, tell us something we don't know. It just sucks less than any other system we've put into practical use. What makes your idea better at dealing with the real world issues that plague every system of governance? You claim simply that all such problems will just 'go away'. In reality...people will still disagree. There will still be competition for limited resources. There will still be crime. There will still be inequality, because people aren't equal. There will still be conflict. There will still be different cultural backgrounds, different beliefs, different languages. An example. How would decions be made on the 'community level'? Democracy is out, because it involves tyranny by majority. No one would be compelled to abide by community decisions if they didn't agree. Dictatorship would be out, as would republic, monarchy, and virtually any other power structure. Without some form of authority to enforce a 'decision', how do you get anything done? Do people just stop disagreeing with each other? Are they allowed to? Your system can't address...in a specific or substantive way, how any of these issues will be resolved or at least, mitigated to a controllable level. How conflicts will be resolved. How crime will be addressed. How addiction, disease, competition, abborant behavior, any of dozens of issues will be taken care of. How will you deal with the crippling ineffeciency the elimination of money would create? How do you assemble the resources necessary for any large project...a highway for example, when there are no taxes, no authority to collect resources, no currency. Or will there be no large projects? Over and over, you simply have no answer. And that degree of avoidance of real world issues doesn't convince or compel many to believe as you do. Without the ability to convince, there can be no consensus on these issues...and your system cannot exist without universal consensus. Everyone, everywhere has to agree.....and you can't even convince the people in this thread. Let alone the 'majority'. |
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palescotsman |
Re: Captialism/Anarchy..... | ||
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Posts: 833 (12/13/06 01:56:49) Beam me up, Scottie! |
Quote: Efficiency And here is another truck sized hole in the 'anarchy' theory. Capitalism has it. Anarchy doesn't.For its strengths and weaknesses, capitalism is remarkably efficient and nimble. Production response with amazing quickness to the demands of the market, with virtually every aspect of production (from raw materials to actual consumption) is streamlined, made with as little cost and resources as possible. Not only is it efficient, but its constantly becoming more productive, doing more with the same base materials, with each passing year. Capital and the uses of money! Capitalism's other major advantage...capital. Money represents resources. And under capitalism, enormous amounts of resources can be directed to very specific projects, public or private. As Sear pointed out...toward the development of mircroprocessors, or in the public sector, to highways, dams, bridges, water processing plants, electricity generation, libraries, etc.. Money is infinitely flexible for the purchase of any component of these projects. Concrete, manpower, plastics, pavement, books, tires, lunch...anything, can all be acquired with the same flexible currency. Currency is a technological innovation that is vastly superior to barter in a variety of ways. You're suggesting we turn back the technological clock and abandon these benefits. What would be the result? Anarchy lacks this capacity. As there is no money, resources become more tangible and concrete. For example: lets say you're a baker and have bread. Bread can only be traded (or paid or given, depending on how your system works...you've never explained this) to those who need bread. If you needed say...concrete, and have only bread to pay for it....you can only trade with a person dealing in concrete who has need for what you have. Not only do you have to search out the need, but how much need. What if your supplier only wants 4 loaves, and will trade you a yard of concrete per loaf? Where do you get the other 30 yards necessary for project? Predictably, efficiency plummets. And with lower efficiency, the time and actual cost (in resources) of production increases. It costs more to make less. And public projects become even more absymally difficult. First off, there is deciding on a public project. Remember, there is no authority. Thus, who decides if we're building a bridge, or a road...if the road is paved or gravel...if its one lane of 4....where the road goes...whose land it cuts through? If there is no land ownership, then who has to move and which homes have to be destroyed for the project? And of course....resources. How do we assemble the enormous quantity of resources necessary to build something as monumental as a highway? Any major project uses more resources than any single person or small like-minded group could assemble in a lifetime. Since we can't just 'collect' what we need from the community, as we have no authority to take anything from anyone, where does the asphalt come from? Or the labor? Or the land? What is someone disagrees? Doesn't want to contribute? Or things it should be done differently? Anarchy offers us no solutions to these huge problems. Capitalism offers us remarkably flexible and enormously efficient solutions to each. Its not that capitalism is perfect or doesn't have costs of its own. Its just that in practical terms, its sucks less than any system in use. And you've offered nothing substantial to indicate that what you propose would be better than capitalism. In fact, all indications are it would be much, much worse. Hell.... we've already got dozens of systems that are worse than capitalism. |
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Booger |
Re: Capitalism/Anarchy | ||
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Posts: 1425 (12/13/06 03:56:14) Unindicted |
"I want to liberate my self from capitalism but I cannot do it alone, I need the majority of the oppressed and the exploited masses."
No country has ever been able to "liberate" itself from capitalism. Makes no difference what the masses want at any given time as the mood will change over time. Eliminating free capitalism does do one thing - it increases poverty. Maybe that is your goal. If you divide the gross product of the world by its inhabitants, and distribiute it equally among them all, everyone will be living in poverty and will be receiving less than minimum wage in the US. While that might sound great if you are making $10/day in China, those in the world that made the world what it is today wont go along - that would include all western nations. Your idea is DOA. |
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Luck of the Draw |
Not to worry tho.... | ||
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Posts: 2213 (12/13/06 09:21:55) Proto-imperialist |
Things hummin' along fine......
TUESDAY, Dec. 12 (HealthDay) -- More Americans are forced to spend more of their family income on health care, and more middle-class Americans are joining the ranks of those spending a disproportionate share of their budget on such expenses, a new study finds. ww.forbes.com/forbeslife/...600030html |
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sear |
Re: Not to worry though ... * | ||
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Posts: 568 (12/13/06 10:50:36) libertarian |
Quote: "Forced"? Piffle. Not Christian Scientists. Americans get soaked on healthcare costs largely by choice. If they would reconsider their options objectively, many average Americans would opt otherwise. * When you suffer, you should examine whether you can do anything about it. If you can, there is no need to worry. If you can not, there is also no need to worry. |
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sammy8 |
Re: Not to worry though ... * | ||
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Posts: 1 (12/13/06 12:26:46) |
Every time I see this anarchy nonsense, I can't help but think of this comic:
www.somethingpositive.net...2002.shtml |
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palescotsman |
Re: Not to worry though ... * | ||
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Posts: 833 (12/13/06 19:04:16) Beam me up, Scottie! |
'Anarchy is your sixth grade gym class for all eternity! Now give me your beer money, @#%$!'
LOL! |
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Booger |
Re: Not to worry tho.... | ||
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Posts: 1425 (12/14/06 02:30:22) Unindicted |
No one is forcing you to pay for health care. LOTD. That is your choice. Live or die with the choices you make and take responsibility for yourself instead of constantly blaming others for not always getting your own way.
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